CCP Rise wrote:I think the real problem here is that because we're putting any time into these ships, you guys want them to pop with something new. In the past, their flavor mostly was based on their art along with some quirks like having 5 Gallente indies or battle Badgers. On the whole haulers are just not very exciting compared to a lot of other classes in EVE. I can understand you want something new to make them pop more, but please keep in mind that it was never there to begin with. These ships mostly just carry stuff around for cheap, that's what they do. The purpose of this balance is just to make sure that there is some depth of choice and that each race has access to a cheap ship to carry things around that isn't painfully worse than the Itty 5.
On flavor generally... I think the word is used in so many different ways that I'm not even sure how to answer. I think Fozzie and I are really focused on mechanics that lead to interesting gameplay. I can't speak for him, but I think that "flavor" often emerges as a result of good design, or is intentionally added to lead to interesting play. We both care about it, especially in EVE. On top of that, we don't do anything alone, and there's plenty of people in the department who are extremely concerned about story, history, and aesthetic to make sure that I don't do anything too disruptive. These people played a hugely important part in decisions around the industrials.
I've typed a lot of text walls today =P
Well, if I can counter the bolded statement, it almost sounds as if you're suggesting that because you're putting *some* effort into it, we should just be satisfied with the bone we've been thrown. I couldn't disagree more. You've admitted that the industrial lines have never "popped," and that their purpose is to haul stuff cheaply. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. We (meaning the many posters who've passionately made the various suggestions) are merely advocating that there
is room for innovation here, and if you're going to go through the trouble of rebalancing this line--not as some sort of afterthought or half-hearted effort--then
you ought to give it the same attention you'd give any other line.
You could have argued that Mining Barges were boring and only served to suck up asteroids at the fastest rate. You could have buffed Barges' respective rock-sucking amounts and left it at that. But you didn't. You innovated on a line that could have used some help, and the results have been
fantastic.
It's the same treatment we're asking for here, because, look, we all get that Industrials won't be even on the list after these changes are made. So give them a proper balance now, and
have them pop. Give them the Mining Barge treatment where one can actually tank something (~50k ehp) to stop mindless ganks, make one
really fast for afk, low-value hauls and make one
enormously capable of carrying goods for the high sec bold or for those that live safely deep in the back reaches of space.
The "flavor" of the lines--at least as I understand it, since there isn't "traditional" flavor by optimal range or tracking, etc.--is how slick it can do its job. Is it engaging to have a ship that has a huge cargo bay? Is it satisfying to fly
that boat when I need to pick up my daily haul? Does it feel good knowing that when I undock my Hoarder it'll actually survive the random ganking dessie? It
can.
If you don't take the opportunity to innovate now, then it'll still be just a matter of who holds the most and train that--look how this has worked out historically: The Itty V carried the most, and it was trained into the most for haulers. The Covetor/Hulk sucked rocks the most, thus it was skilled into the most for this. In fact, in every instance where a ship did "the most," it was trained into and flown extensively until tiericide came along (Hurricane?). With the proposed changes, admittedly you're looking for
viable choices, so as not to have them all marginalized, but it almost sounds like you don't want
competitive choices. As players we like competitive choices and decision making. Adding flavor to the industrial line gives that--true choice with pros and cons to each.
CCP Rise wrote:Maybe it could/should be, but again, I don't think this rebalance is the place to start, which is why we decided to hold off on anything drastic until we get a better sense for where industry in general is heading.
I'm sorry, but I'm not content with holding off on the future promises when the issues facing Industrial rebalance can be addressed today. Besides, it's not worth being complacent today, since this is THE chance we'll get to innovate. Obviously, we haven't seen behind the candelabra and know what future industrial changes are coming. All we can speak to is what we know the Industrial line can--and
should become now and not some future balancing period.
Lastly, just to address the point that T1 Industrials are effectively replacing DSTs' role as a "large" high sec hauler, I'd like to say that DSTs are horrendously broken at the current time. They perform poorly as tanky haulers, considering that their cargo bay is smaller than a blockade runner when properly--
read: as intended--tanked, and they're far too slow to align when fully fitted for cargo for high sec duty. The Orca--the world's premier mining support ship--does their job better in spades, having an enormous hold AND a ridiculous tank. Certainly, the changes to T1 Industrials' cargo room is warranted (with other changes, to be sure) and their impact on a broken T2 line
should never be considered. If that were the case, T1 cruisers would never have ended up so well if Fozzie and his team were worried they'd marginalize proper T2 ships (Deimos says hello).